Author Topic: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport  (Read 21832 times)

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Offline toplessFC3Sman

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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2019, 07:01:47 PM »
And here are the videos:

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The off-track agricultural excursion

Second-to-last session
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Last session, with a little bit more sliding around towards the end
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Sorry for the strange angle, I think I lost part of my go-pro mounting kit and didn't have the bits to make the camera quite straight
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 03:47:38 AM by toplessFC3Sman »

Offline toplessFC3Sman

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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2019, 01:48:56 PM »
Well, where we left off - I had a fun weekend at Mid-Ohio, but Vera was a bit bruised. The past week I've been trying to fix the damage, at least a bit, to get ready for winter. I'm not terribly concerned about the bumper cover, but I did want to get the fender bent back out so everything fit correctly, prepped, and painted to avoid rust. I also needed to address the headlight - it was obviously scraped up from the incident, and a bit cloudy from age.

So, off comes the bumper, wheel well liners, and headlight to assess the damage.

Not too bad in here, but there was very clearly a crease about half-way across that pass-through that allows access to the back of the headlight. The bottom of that pass-through should have been straight, but the sheet metal beyond that crease was bent down, backwards, and twisted a little bit. Time to do a bit of straightening.



Taking some ratchet-straps and running them forward to the workbench and sideways to the doorframe, I was able to apply tension to the sub-structure there to pull it back into shape... with some percussive adjustment with a rubber mallet from behind. Simultaneously, I had to piece the headlight back together since two of the three mounting points were broken, and it was held in basically because it was pinched by the fender.


Getting those mounting points glued back on and matched up to the other side was very helpful, since I could then use them to help guide how much I needed to move the substructure to get the various pins and holes to line up correctly.



Looking much better, and sanded for primer and paint.


It's been painted and the clear-coat has been applied by now, but I don't have any pictures since I still need to do some buffing and sanding to remove a few runs - it was a bit too chilly for the spray paint to dry properly and I ran into a few problems, but overall the color, flake, and texture looks pretty close.

The headlight turned out pretty well too, although the low temperatures lead to some odd "cracking" effect across the lens with the clear coat I applied to protect the sanded & buffed surface.


Offline toplessFC3Sman

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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2020, 05:50:36 PM »
This past weekend Gina and I went out to Grattan for two days of driving, plus camping in the infield. It was a lot of fun, but unfortunately it only really ended up being one day of driving. The first day Vera was doing great, feeling very stable and consistent, and I was putting down times in the 1:40 range with a best in the 1:38s. I was far from fastest out there, and was mostly leaving it in 3rd still, despite there being 3 places where I think 2nd could have helped. Probably the best session to watch would be the second one, where I got a bit sideways after the "jump" at about 13:15 through a few consecutive corners.

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The second day was a bit rougher. First... a few too many beers the night before convinced me to skip the first session in order to sleep some more. Oops. I felt much better after that though, and was getting ready to go out in the second session when the low oil warning light came on. Sure enough, oil level was low, so I had to add about 2 1/2 quarts of oil to get it back to the full line (I don't know that it was full at the start of the first day, honestly I forgot to check since we were camping at the track and I was busy making breakfast etc before the track went hot), but then when I went out, about 2 or 3 laps in I started getting a sporadic misfire above 6000 RPM or so, bad enough to flash the CEL and cause power to be cut. The CEL was P0302 - misfire rotor 2, and sure enough the plugs in that rotor (especially the trailing) were wet with oil. Cleaned the plugs, reinstalled them, and went for a test-drive and wound it out (on public roads, so I couldn't pin the throttle for too long)... no problems, no misfires, and the power felt fine. However, when I went out on track again the misfire was back on the second lap. At this point I decided to pack up & head home, I didn't want to risk any further damage from a misfire or potentially a damaged oil control ring before driving the car 2 1/2 hours home. When idling leaving the track, I noticed that there was white smoke coming out of the exhaust that smelled very oily. However, winding the engine out on the way home getting onto the highway etc, there was no misfire.

Well, I made it home fine, and this morning I pulled the intake apart and found a bit of oil in the intake system. The accordian tube before the throttle had some trapped in it, and there was a stream running down into the airbox that stained the air filter and dripped out of the hole in the bottom of the air box.

All of this seems to point towards accidentally pouring oil into the PCV system when refilling the oil; the coils are the BHR kit with only 6000 miles or so on it, with new plugs and wires at the same time so I think its unlikely that they would already be failing. However, its possible that the blow-by is increasing, causing more oil to be forced into the intake at high speeds. I know the 04's and 05's are prone to PCV issues - did this extend all the way to 09? Anything else I should check or consider?

I plan on installing a catch can in the line too, does anyone have a suggestion for which? I'm leaning towards one of the compact baffled mishimoto clones (like $20 vs $120, and they look identical inside and out), and changing the plugs before the next track day at Waterford on Aug 23rd.

Offline toplessFC3Sman

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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2020, 07:39:13 AM »
Well, I went down the rabbit hole a bit on trying to understand the PCV and vacuum setup on the RX8 so I would know where to put the catch can etc. Well... turns out it seems like the 2011 S2 diagram and my 2009 S2 car are a bit different.

The FSM diagram only shows two connections to the oil fill neck; the red and green lines shown below:

The green line comes from the pre-throttle accordian to provide fresh air at atmospheric pressure to the sump, which is drawn out through the red line at the top of the fill neck and is shown as going back into the manifold just after the throttle body. The blue line that I drew on there does not exist on the diagram, I just put that on there to show approx where a third mystery vacuum line connects.

Here is the engine itself (with the alternator, upper intake manifold, throttle and accordian etc removed):


The green hose is exactly as shown, running from the accordian to the bottom of the oil tank right above where it enters the center iron. This tube definitely had oil getting pushed back through it and leaking into the accordian, filter box etc, so this is the tube that I put the oil catch can in the middle of (pictures to follow).

The red hose is confusing - it comes off the top of the oil fill neck, but instead of running to the manifold just after the throttle body, it runs down the passenger's side of the engine to a "T" that is then connected to nipples going into the two primary runners. Sure, this is still a vacuum source, but not only is this a much different location than the diagram shows, but I also think that this location on the primary runners are the jet air nozzles to help with fuel atomization. However, this connection in the diagram appears to go to the second connection in the accordian (also roughly atmospheric air, but not from the sump). So... functionally this should work similar to the diagram, but why are they different? This also raises the question... where does that second line from the accordian actually go to if it's not running to the jet air connection?


Finally... what is that blue line, and where does it go? Well, lets see... it heads under the oil tank, so off that comes too, to find a mess of hoses and vacuum lines.

Well, it connects to another vacuum port on one of the OMPs. Not sure why it wasn't shown on the other diagram, even if just as an arrow pointing to a call to another diagram.

Well, since oil was definitely coming through the green line into the intake accordian, I installed the oil catch can in that line. Cue the bracket-making (nowhere near as nice as the "Bad Obsession Motorsports" guts).



And here it is, tucked between the fuse box and ABS pump. The original green line to the oil tank was long enough and shaped close enough to just re-use going to the inlet port of the catch can, and 3/8" piece of left-over hose was used to run from the outlet over the top of the accordian back to the original connection.


Now, we'll see how the day at Waterford on Sunday goes, and whether any more accumulates here etc. Hopefully its not excessive blowby, but if it is... well... I may just need to be catching and draining oil for a while until I'm ready for a rebuild.

Offline toplessFC3Sman

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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2020, 06:48:18 PM »
Well, the catch can definitely worked - no misfires and the can collected about 2 oz of oil in each of the first two sessions. Then... Vera fixed herself? The last two sessions had no oil at all! How strange!

Offline ~Groll69~

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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2020, 08:16:46 AM »
so glad it worked.  Odd how she fixed herself.  maybe a vacuum solenoid wasn't working properly or working periodically.
"Long Live Rotary"

An RX-7 is like having a slut as a gf! She will love you, but she will also screw around with the guy at the parts store, most of the local cops, your insurance agent, your apex seals, your bank account and your credit card!!!

Offline toplessFC3Sman

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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2020, 04:48:32 PM »
I suspect that in my haste that morning at the track, I overfilled the oil (or at least filled it too quickly). This made it slosh around more under cornering and cause these issues. Now... I don't think I did, since checking the oil at the track 2 weeks ago, and again this time, showed the low hole in the dipstick filled but the high hole was not filled (although there was oil residue around it). However... its really the only explanation that I can think of, since the PCV system doesn't contain any solenoids or even check valves.

Offline toplessFC3Sman

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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2021, 05:51:59 AM »
Well, I've been driving Vera a lot through the pandemic - for about 6 months over the fall and winter she was the only one of the fleet on active insurance. Still doesn't mean very many miles since I'm not regularly driving to work at this point, but the snow tires over the winter made her a blast!

Unfortunately, winter driving brings salt, and salt is the bane of any 2000's Mazda's chassis. It also looks like there was some sort of damage on the driver's side rocker - there were a few spots where it looked like dent-pulling wires were welded on and used (two of which rusted through and made holes), bondo all along the panel and in front of the rear wheel well, even filling in holes used to secure some of the trim, which was glued on to the paint instead, and all sorts of mismatched and semi-broken trim clips along that side. Oh well... rust repair was not what I planned on doing this last week, but if I'm going to be doing it, I may as well personalize the car a bit more in the process.

Anyway, there was a lot of work with sandpaper and a wire wheel, then masking off the top of the car, followed by two coats of rust inhibitor primer, three of a rubberized underbody coating, and three of the same shade of green used on the winter wheels (it took 3 coats to look even over the rough underbody coat). Overall though, I'm pretty happy with how it turned out.





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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2021, 07:47:55 PM »
That looks really nice.  Great job.  Wanna work on Jenny for me? Lol jk.  Glad she has done well for you. 
"Long Live Rotary"

An RX-7 is like having a slut as a gf! She will love you, but she will also screw around with the guy at the parts store, most of the local cops, your insurance agent, your apex seals, your bank account and your credit card!!!

Offline toplessFC3Sman

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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2021, 10:41:24 AM »
Another track weekend down, and the oil/misfire issues that I saw last year did not recur. The catch can remained dry the whole time, oil consumption was about 3/4 liter per day, and from the driver's seat everything worked perfectly. I worked on trail braking a lot, and experimented with different lines and corner entry techniques throughout the weekend. Not sure if I got any faster, but I definitely got more confident with the car in different scenarios and improved my trail braking control. There was another guy there with a nice looking MBM FD - single turbo, V-mount radiator and IC that seemed to be running well by the end of the weekend. He may show up on the board here in the near future too.

Still need to process the videos and flip them around, but there were some great sunsets for pictures.






Offline toplessFC3Sman

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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2022, 07:33:16 AM »
After sitting for a while between events, I got into Vera one day to warm her up and noticed that the blower motor wasn't working. When I turned it up to full blast, there was a whole bunch of grass clippings, dirt and other debris blow out the vents, plus a funky compost-like smell. Well... some animal decided that it wanted to make its nest in Vera's HVAC system and had chewed through the fresh/recirc vent door, cabin filter and a few other bits of the HVAC housing in order to do so! It had then packed the blower hamster wheel with all sorts of lawn debris, which had jammed the motor at lower speeds and caused the variable speed resistors to burn out (actually, melt a piece of solder "thermal fuse" put in place to protect the resistor and motor if it was stalled).



I was able to get the resistor pack out and add new solder to bridge the thermal fuse gap, and that got the blower working well again at all speeds. The housing was a bit more challenging, especially since I didn't want to take the entire dash apart to remove it. Lots of fiddling, bending, gluing and time with my head crammed in the passenger footwell resulted in a screen that the vent door could mostly close against for recirc that should keep critters out (at least until they chew through the plastic all around it).


I haven't noticed evidence of any more critter activity, but I think one of them may have left some walnut shells in the windshield wiper cavity since I hear something rolling and bouncing from one side of the car to the other when cornering hard, and the wiper mechanism seems to hang up on something every once in a while. Need to take the cowl plastics off again and try to get a vacuum or something in there to get that stuff out still.

Offline toplessFC3Sman

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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2022, 12:17:09 PM »
Well, one of those walnut shells I mentioned in my last post came back to bite me... Sunday morning I was heading out to go ice racing and it was lightly snowing with an inch or so on the ground. When I turned the wipers on, they swept for most of a cycle before *thunk*, and they stopped dead. It wouldn't be safe to make the 2 hour drive without working wipers, so I had to pull the cowl panel up at a lit gas station at 6 am and break up the walnut that was wedged in the mechanism. It was a bit of a pain but only set me back about 10 min, so ultimately not bad.

Anyway, Ice racing was a blast. The lake was great, with nice smooth ice covered by about an inch of snow or so, and I was in the first run group so there was plenty of snow on the line through the gates for my first few runs at least.
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As the session went on, some of the sharper corners got more slick, resulting in a few spins, but overall it was a ton of fun!
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Offline toplessFC3Sman

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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2022, 06:00:11 PM »
Some pictures from the event: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login



Offline toplessFC3Sman

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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2022, 09:35:57 AM »
Well... shit. Over the course of a day of daily-driving back in Feb (all in-town, dropping my son off at school, going home, running an errand etc) Vera started misfiring sporadically, then almost constantly above 50% throttle, until the low oil buzzer went off as I was getting home and I pulled the intake off and found that it was completely oil soaked. I check the oil level regularly, and had changed it about 600 miles before (that mileage spanned 6 months and two HPDE days, plus the first ice racing event), so I know it didn't start off low. The catch can that I had installed when chasing down a similar issue at a track day a couple years ago was completely full too (the catch-can has been dry almost since I installed it, the issue was topping off the oil in haste before my session with the engine idling - some got sucked into the various vacuum lines). Anyway, even a small amount of time running would result in pumping a lot of oil out of the crank case and into the catch can, then into the intake. The engine started up pretty well (as long as the MAF and plugs were cleaned of the oil), and idled fine, but rotor 1 was low on compression on all faces. Anyway, after taking apart and cleaning the intake, oil fill manifold, and the associated tubes a couple times, I had convinced myself it was rebuild time.

So, on to the rebuild, the rear rotor looks pretty much fine... a bit of wear evident on the housing plus 2 minor gouges (not sure what those were from), and one of the side seal springs had broken apart into a few pieces, but all the pieces were still contained behind the side seal. The front housing was a bit more roughed up, and two of the three side seals on the center iron face of the rotor were at least half-missing, with no springs left behind them and only a couple tiny bits of metal found on the trailing plug face and in the exhaust port. The oil seals on all rotor faces were intact and appeared undamaged.

So now, repair plans:

First, I'm planning on new housings front & rear - the front has some obvious damage from bits of the side seals getting driven into the exhaust-face of the housing, so I don't think this one would be reusable even if it could be re-surfaced.


Otherwise there are minor scratches, most of which I can't quite catch a fingernail on. There's also a bit of a different wear pattern in the center vs sides along the housing, with some slight chatter marks, but none of this seems unreasonable for an engine with 93k miles on it. Oddly, there are some notable grooves running around the whole inner circumference of both the front and rear housing that don't seem to be mirrored in the apex seals, and the rear housing also has some similar evidence of something getting driven into it by the rotor on the exhaust portion of the surface. Maybe bits of the front rotor side seals made their way into the intake and over to the rear rotor? Either that or this engine has been apart before and the housings were re-used. There was a lot of RTV squeeze-out between the housings, irons, and sump, and the clutch is pretty new, so maybe?

On to the irons - the wear pattern looks pretty normal I think, with the exception of a couple spots. The trailing edge of some of the ports looks a little chewed up by bits of broken seal that got caught there, the finish on the trailing edge of the exhaust port does not seem as smooth as elsewhere, and particularly on the front face of the middle iron, there are some deeper gouges and divots presumably from the side seals coming apart (this was the face that the broken seals were riding on).

Front iron, mostly good except for some chewing on the trialing edge of the lower intake ports and different finish on trailing edge of exhaust port:

Middle iron, front face, definitely some damage at the trailing edge of the intake port and on the sliding surface from breaking seals:


Finally, the rotors. The rear rotor looked fine - some carbon deposits but thats not unexpected. The front rotor was a bit more scuffed up, including scrapes around the rear face presumably from the side seals coming apart.

Also, on the leading edge of the apex seal groove there was a bit of metal junk building up. Its definitely sticking proud of the machined surface, and doesn't seem like its been pushed up from inside the apex seal groove (not sure how this would happen, especially on the leading edge of the groove and not on the trailing edge), so I'm guessing that this is what happened to the missing parts of the seals and their springs... most of them got chewed up and squashed by the rotor here, getting stuck as the rotor spun and dragged them along until they hit the apex seals. This is on all 3 apexes of the front rotor, only on their leading edge, and is not apparent at all on the rear rotor.

The apex seals mostly look good, and I'm on the fence about re-using them, but figure if I'm getting new housings, may as well get new apex seals to try to get as much life as possible out of the rebuild.

So, anyway the plan is to try to get good-condition used front and middle irons (Thanks Kevin!), or barring that get the ones I have re-nitrided. Clean up the rotor surfaces and that debris on the front rotor apex groove, get new housings, apex seals & springs, side seals & springs, corner seal springs, and all the soft seals (all the oil seals and bearings look like they're in good shape). The corner seals themselves all look good, but I still need to look through the FSM to see if there is a spec to measure them to.

Offline toplessFC3Sman

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Re: Vera's Story - '09 RX-8 Sport
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2022, 09:43:16 AM »
The rebuild ended up going pretty smoothly, with new housings, the front and center iron from Kevin, and new seals all around (the old apex seals appeared good, but were at the minimum 4.5mm thickness). The only hiccups were a pinched coolant seal and a dropped apex seal corner that promptly disappeared somewhere in the garage. Fortunately I was able to get these parts alone, and slowly got the engine back together. Grinding the side seals was a bit tedious, requiring a lot of care and a delicate touch, but I put together a simple wooden jig to hold the dremel and help align the side seals to get a more consistent curved surface on the side seal end to mate to the corner seals.


All of the side-seal clearances landed in the 0.15-0.2mm range, so on the tighter side of the general range I could find. It took a while getting everything back together and into the engine bay again because I wanted to make sure I wasn't forgetting anything or mixing anything up, and time is just limited with kids etc. However, things finally fell into place a few weeks ago for the re-installation, which went really smoothly. The first start was completely uneventful, and Vera has continued to have no problem hot or cold-starting. Seat-of-the-pants feel is about the same as before, but its hard to tell when keeping the engine speed under 6000 RPM for break in.

50 miles in, the compression numbers (corrected to 260 rpm etc) are 6.7-6.7-7.3 in front and 7.2-6.9-7.5 in the rear. I'm not thrilled with the individual rotor spread, but we'll see how it progresses as I put more miles on her.